mikescape: A Calvinist in an Arminian church

Wednesday, April 29, 2009

A Calvinist in an Arminian church

Mike Patton, a stark-raving out-of-the-closet Calvinist, has some incredibly good insights here.

8 comments:

Anonymous said...: I like this...But I wonder if pastors in the Calvary movement can be as inclusive and gracious with Calvinists in ministries in their churches or even as pastors in the movement, given the books by some prominent in the movement that are divisive on the issue of calvinism, even calling it heresy....I am praying and hoping that one day there will be more true unity in the movement on this issue, i.e. allowing pastors to have a divergence of belief based on their own personal study of scripture and their conscience....; 11/30/2009 11:44:00 AM
mike macon said...: That is very much in question.

I absolutely agree with CCOF's position that Calvinism is completely incompatible with our movement. That being said, though you cannot be a Calvary pastor and a Calvinist at the same time, that is not the same thing as saying that the Calvinist is a heretic. It is simply saying that it is incompatible with CC - much like you cannot be a cessationist and a CC pastor.; 11/30/2009 11:50:00 AM
Anonymous said...: True, but a bit simplistic. Many Calvary pastors though not cessationists function that way, and thye are not disfellowshipped. Also, to cast a church or a pastor out of fellowship, if in the due course of time he/they come(s) to believe that election is not by forknowledge is an overexalting of a secondary doctrine over primary doctrines of the gospel and love/ unity. To me it is sad that if a Calvary pastor comes to believe something diferent, but has no moral failings, etc. that he could be cast out of fellowship...Hmmmm...; 11/30/2009 12:15:00 PM
mike macon said...: I assume, therefore, that you would expect (oh, say) one of the conservative Presbyterian and Reformed denominations to extend the same grace to a pastor of theirs who comes over time to reject Calvinism in favor of Arminianism, yes...?; 11/30/2009 12:17:00 PM
Anonymous said...: ideally and theortically yes....though to be fair, point well taken...but I have not heard of many cases of that happening. These are the points where the theory is good, but the way it plays out is usually messy. I don't believe they should have to face the prospect of disdain, loss of ministry, loss of financial support for their family, etc. I suppose I think that if someone is serving the Lord with all essential doctrine and growing in practice, they should be allowed to stay with a group of people that are being led by them if the central tenet of the problem is one that deals with the basis of election (foreknowledge or not), which is the key point in the debate. To me, a bigger orthodox evangelical umbrella shows a level of unity in Christ that is superior than having Calvinist baptists and Arminian Baptists for example. And in that way, I suppose the Southern Baptist convention (which I am not a part of, nor am I a baptist in general) is a bigger gospel umbrella than Calvary, though possibly not in other ways....; 11/30/2009 12:47:00 PM
mike macon said...: If you are a pastor in a Presbyterian church, you are required to subscribe to the Forms of Unity - including the Westminster Confession. If you drift from Calvinism into Molinism or Arminianism, you have set aside the Forms of Unity and can very rightly no longer be considered a faithful Presbyterian pastor. That doesn't mean you're not a Christian; it does, however, mean you can no longer be in vocational Presbyterian ministry.

I have no problem with that; Presbyterians have every right to define what Presbyterianism looks like.

I simply demand the same right for the rest of the church - including CC.; 11/30/2009 01:09:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi again. You don't need to demand your right, its there. I contend that the right you claim is sadly lacking in gospel unity. The difference with Calvary (and I speak from within the camp), is that it claims that it is not Arminian (claims which you make as well), but then it never truly criticizes Arminianism or writes books calling it heresy. That is a strange thing for a group claiming to be "in the middle" Where are all the books decrying some of the problems with Arminism? Where are the hard stances kicking Authentic Arminians out of CC? That is the thing, its not consistant whatsoever. Now one might answer that Arminians are not mean and divisive like Calvinists..I know from experience that is not true. Second, one of Calvary's big selling points is unity and that love exceeds all the diferences. Also, Chuck Smith clearly has said he wants all types of backgrounds in the church. It seems like hypocrisy to ask the congregation to practice such love and unity, and to publish books for Christians showing that that is what you are all about, and then to not be even handed in dealing with Calvinists and Arminians. Wouldn't it be a truer expression of love being supreme to allow pastors who come to a diferent orthodox position to continue in the fellowship of the gospel work. Thats the thing, Calvary unlike the Presbyterian church or others prides itself on Love and Unity along with the tribulation distinctive etc...So, when a love and unity group starts to expel orthodox Chrsitians for having a diferent orthodox opinion, it is hypocrisy....I love Calvary, but I love Jesus and the gospel and my calvinists (and Arminian) brothers more than Calvary....Also, there is a blatant pragmatic hypocrisy in that if someone has a bigger church I have noticed that they are not kicked out for somewhat clearly teaching a more Calvinistic sotierology. I would give examples, but out of respect for their ministries I refrain...So the message is: if you differ on the basis of election, keep it quiet unless you are successful enough and we won't kick you out.; 11/30/2009 02:43:00 PM
mike macon said...: I understand, I think...and I can sympathize with much of your point - without agreeing that Calvinism is compatible with CC theology.

We aren't Calvinist or Arminian - any more than a great many other soteriologies are one or either (see http://mikescape.blogspot.com/2009/11/non-arminian-non-calvinists.html and http://mikescape.blogspot.com/2009/11/lutheran-soteriology.html). Even so, though there are mean Arminians, they generally aren't as prominent or as strong a force as born-again New Calvinists.

It's interesting that Calvinism didn't become an issue in CC until the early '90's - when some of that particular bent began pushing their doctrines. Much of CC's reaction to Calvinism is a reaction to that.

I do not believe that Calvinism is in any way heretical or subchristian - just incompatible with CC.

That said, as I stated above, I can sympathize with much of your points in the comment above.; 11/30/2009 02:57:00 PM